Well, for one thing, it seems to discriminate against blacks. For another, with all the litigation that happens when someone is put on death row, it might be cheaper for the taxpayer to make such sentences life without parole or release. For yet another, clearly some innocent men (maybe women) have been executed. For yet another, it wouldn't deter all crimes, such as, obviously, the 911 hijackings. They were planning to die. So I'm mostly against it, although the Old Testament allowed it as a punishment by the state for serious crimes.
Paul talks in Romans 13:4 that the rulers "don't bear the sword for nothing." He doesn't condemn the sword or anything like that. Although it's an argument from silence it's an argument. I'm in favor of it, maybe even for sex offenders. The God who gave the guidelines for the Israelites is the same one who died on the cross. Would Jesus pull the switch for the electric chair? Ask Ananias and Sapphira, maybe King Herod who was eaten by worms and died.
well if we were to take the rules for the israelites anyone to argue with there parents or not to honor the sabbath would be dead. that would really limit the population.
genesis 9:5-6 is the best thing i got.
thanks martin and brooks both great points.
i am also wondering if there is a wesleyan stand on this because there is nothing to my knowledge in the discipline.
I’ve never been a fan of governments taking to themselves the power to kill people. Most government-sponsored killing that seemed sensible at the time is later is doubted. While Americans do not have the same stories as the Europeans (Germany 1943) we still might be better served by refusing to execute people at home or on the battlefield. Yet the Lutheran “two kingdoms” approach may be the easiest way to actually manage a government.. (i.e. we live in a fallen world and thus must sometimes stoop to fallen means to govern) I prefer the Anabaptist approach myself...though I suspect that means I may be an inept leader of government.
"But I tell you: Love your enemiesand pray for those who persecute you" Matthew 5:44
I'm against it. I believe that men and women can be redeemed by the grace of God. If you are going to lift the Old Testament texts out and use them to defend capital punishment, you will have to deal with the inconsistencies of not taking the entire Levitical and Deuteronomic code into consideration. What is the spirit of those texts? Is God attempting to limit killing because the people have hard hearts or is He saying that killing is the optimal punishment?
empty the prisons, nobody should be punished. show grace to everyone. No speeding tickets either! Perhaps there is a difference between individual and government ethics.
I am in favor of capital punishment...now, I also come from a different denomination so I have no clue what the Wesleyan Church has to say on it...I could throw out some verses to support it but the scripture doesn't come right out and say either way right or wrong. But it does say submit to authorities and Jesus practiced that by submitting to death on a cross...He never once mentioned it as an unfair punishment or said anything to those falsely accusing Him about if they had the right to take His life. He submitted. He was God and Man and submitted to the authorities God had put in place and so should we. Which is, in a way, submitting to God Himself.
Another small thought, why are we so oppossed to capital punishment? We are told in the Bible that we are going to suffer when we accept Christ. In many parts of the world it is Christians who receive death penalties along with other "criminals" and these Christians bear the cross they have with out fear...
...God's grace is available to all, no one is beyond His reach...but in this conversation I think we also must look at responsibility for actions. When we do something their is a sentence we serve for it...we are saved from death spiritually by Jesus, but that doesn't translate over to here on earth. We still must face responsiblity for what we have done.
michael, i am starting to fall in line with you. here are my reasons.
1. there is authority given to us by God (government) 2. we are told to abide by the laws of government. 3. people know the laws and the possible punishment that might happen (consequences)
now where we differ is the idea of reforming. while there is capital punishment in the majority of states, it is not widely practiced, except of course in texas which have had 357 executions of the 1009 in the u.s. since 1976. california has the highest amount of people on death row (648) but has only executed 13 of these people.
an average of between 2.1 and 2.3 million dollars are spents on each death penalty case which is three times the cost of keeping a person in prison for life. in california $114 million is spent just on the death row inmates.
i wonder why we are willing to spend so much money in order to kill someone. new york just last year claimed that captial punishment is not constitutional so they overturned the whole system in the state.
taxpayer pay way to much already. one way to keep cost down is just to have life in prison. if they claim the prisons are too full, build a couple more.
9 comments:
Well, for one thing, it seems to discriminate against blacks. For another, with all the litigation that happens when someone is put on death row, it might be cheaper for the taxpayer to make such sentences life without parole or release. For yet another, clearly some innocent men (maybe women) have been executed. For yet another, it wouldn't deter all crimes, such as, obviously, the 911 hijackings. They were planning to die. So I'm mostly against it, although the Old Testament allowed it as a punishment by the state for serious crimes.
Paul talks in Romans 13:4 that the rulers "don't bear the sword for nothing." He doesn't condemn the sword or anything like that. Although it's an argument from silence it's an argument. I'm in favor of it, maybe even for sex offenders. The God who gave the guidelines for the Israelites is the same one who died on the cross. Would Jesus pull the switch for the electric chair? Ask Ananias and Sapphira, maybe King Herod who was eaten by worms and died.
-brooks.
well if we were to take the rules for the israelites anyone to argue with there parents or not to honor the sabbath would be dead. that would really limit the population.
genesis 9:5-6 is the best thing i got.
thanks martin and brooks both great points.
i am also wondering if there is a wesleyan stand on this because there is nothing to my knowledge in the discipline.
I’ve never been a fan of governments taking to themselves the power to kill people. Most government-sponsored killing that seemed sensible at the time is later is doubted. While Americans do not have the same stories as the Europeans (Germany 1943) we still might be better served by refusing to execute people at home or on the battlefield. Yet the Lutheran “two kingdoms” approach may be the easiest way to actually manage a government.. (i.e. we live in a fallen world and thus must sometimes stoop to fallen means to govern) I prefer the Anabaptist approach myself...though I suspect that means I may be an inept leader of government.
"But I tell you: Love your enemiesand pray for those who persecute you" Matthew 5:44
I'm against it. I believe that men and women can be redeemed by the grace of God. If you are going to lift the Old Testament texts out and use them to defend capital punishment, you will have to deal with the inconsistencies of not taking the entire Levitical and Deuteronomic code into consideration. What is the spirit of those texts? Is God attempting to limit killing because the people have hard hearts or is He saying that killing is the optimal punishment?
empty the prisons, nobody should be punished. show grace to everyone. No speeding tickets either! Perhaps there is a difference between individual and government ethics.
-brooks.
individual and government ethics... interesting... think you hit on to something
I am in favor of capital punishment...now, I also come from a different denomination so I have no clue what the Wesleyan Church has to say on it...I could throw out some verses to support it but the scripture doesn't come right out and say either way right or wrong. But it does say submit to authorities and Jesus practiced that by submitting to death on a cross...He never once mentioned it as an unfair punishment or said anything to those falsely accusing Him about if they had the right to take His life. He submitted. He was God and Man and submitted to the authorities God had put in place and so should we. Which is, in a way, submitting to God Himself.
Another small thought, why are we so oppossed to capital punishment? We are told in the Bible that we are going to suffer when we accept Christ. In many parts of the world it is Christians who receive death penalties along with other "criminals" and these Christians bear the cross they have with out fear...
...God's grace is available to all, no one is beyond His reach...but in this conversation I think we also must look at responsibility for actions. When we do something their is a sentence we serve for it...we are saved from death spiritually by Jesus, but that doesn't translate over to here on earth. We still must face responsiblity for what we have done.
Michael
michael,
i am starting to fall in line with you. here are my reasons.
1. there is authority given to us by God (government)
2. we are told to abide by the laws of government.
3. people know the laws and the possible punishment that might happen (consequences)
now where we differ is the idea of reforming. while there is capital punishment in the majority of states, it is not widely practiced, except of course in texas which have had 357 executions of the 1009 in the u.s. since 1976. california has the highest amount of people on death row (648) but has only executed 13 of these people.
an average of between 2.1 and 2.3 million dollars are spents on each death penalty case which is three times the cost of keeping a person in prison for life. in california $114 million is spent just on the death row inmates.
i wonder why we are willing to spend so much money in order to kill someone. new york just last year claimed that captial punishment is not constitutional so they overturned the whole system in the state.
taxpayer pay way to much already. one way to keep cost down is just to have life in prison. if they claim the prisons are too full, build a couple more.
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